An epic debate.

I'm certain no one will care about this, but I had a rather enjoyable debate with someone on one of the conservative forums I frequent and thought I would share. To his credit he seemed like a nice guy and it was very civil.

Him:
I'm not native English speaker, so forgive my redaction. I'll ask some questions for you to consider: why is ISIS just attacking kurds, chia and iraki christians? if they're USA and Israel enemies, why don't they attack their military bases in iraq? why does USA let that group just grow and grow? why the supposed bombards aren't having any effect? why did an US senator take a pic with the leaders of that bloody terrorist group? Why are the leaders of ISIS mostly from western countries? they stole Mosul bank.. why weren't their bank accounts blocked? why does France keep selling them guns? they now control many oil fields, who buys them the oil production? If they're muslim, why is their leader vowing to destroy the kaaba, the most important muslim monument?

Me:

Why is ISIS just attacking Kurds, chia and Iraqi Christians?
Because ISIS are Sunni Muslims so they sympathetic toward other Sunni’s. Kurds are primarily Sunni Muslim but are a different ethnic group and they don’t always get along with the Arabs.

If they're USA and Israel enemies, why don't they attack their military bases in Iraq? I’m sure they would if they could. They did attack Camp Speicher, a former U.S. military base. I don’t believe they have reached any bases under U.S. control yet.

Why does USA let that group just grow and grow?
Because we have a weak president whose afraid to get involved.

Why the supposed bombards aren't having any effect?
For one they are very limited, but even those limited bombings are having some effect. The beheading of US journalist Steven Sotloff by the Islamic State group, called it retribution for continued US airstrikes in Iraq.

Why did an US senator take a pic with the leaders of that bloody terrorist group?
That was John McCain’s poor attempt to find “moderate” rebels to support against Bashar Assad.

Why are the leaders of ISIS mostly from western countries?
Say’s who? Their leader was born in Iraq and before that al-Zarqawi came from Jordan. There are some westerns fighting for ISIS, no doubt because of recruitment on social media sites.

They stole Mosul bank.. why weren't their bank accounts blocked?
I’ve looked into this and it appears it was a hoax. Iraqi bankers say they never stole $430 million from Mosul, US intelligence has doubts about this also.

Why does France keep selling them guns?
I haven’t found anything about this, only that France was sending weapons to the Iraqi Kurds.

They now control many oil fields, who buys them the oil production?
Last I heard China was the biggest beneficiary of Iraqi oil.

If they're Muslim, why is their leader vowing to destroy the Kaaba, the most important Muslim monument?
There's many different Muslim sects. Apparently ISIS see’s the Kaaba as idol worship.

I know what your insinuating but there are many factors that led to the rise of ISIS, an inept U.S. administration, the U.S. withdraw from Iraq, the Arab Spring which led to the conflict in Syria, the proliferation of arms from Libya, etc. There’s no hidden conspiracies. ISIS is an offshoot of Al-Qaeda that grew because of the instabilities in the middle-east.

Him:
And Al-Qaeda is an ofshoot of the CIA. When I see old Rambo films, the yihadists are the good guys along with the americans, fighting against the evil soviets. You can't deny all this situation is produced, directly or indirectly by the presence of U.S in the region. Look at the situation of Iraq and Afganistan before u set ur feet in their land. It wasn't the paradise, but they were far better than now. The women could go to school and work, the distinct religious groups lived in peace as they had done for hundreds of years. But then democrazy came... I respect U.S history you have done great contributions to technology and shared them with the world. But I think from Vietnam War your foreign policy is just being creepy. It's like you're losing economic influence in the world, so you kick some tins for the world to understand you're still here. Well, Sometimes I think it's all about lack of resources. I'm afraid what will happen to South America if someday water starts to scarce...

Me:

Al-Qaeda is an offshoot from the CIA? Not true, that is a myth. Al-Qaeda is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. Afgan Arabs like Osama Bin Laden had little to do with the CIA. Bin Laden was wealthy enough to fund himself, he was always anti-American, and operated independently. The groups we supported were defeated by the Taliban who harbored senior members of Al-Qaeda.

Do you really think life was better under the Taliban and Saddam?? The Taliban banned music, television, the internet. They forbid girls to go to schools or to work outside their homes. Public executions and punishment were routine under the Taliban. And Saddam was a brutal dictator who
gassed his own people. How many people have died under the Taliban and Saddam? It wasn’t going into Iraq that caused the problem, it was leaving Iraq that caused the problems.

Him:
 I'm refering to Iraq before Saddam. Saddam was a puppet of the USA to fight against Iran in the 80's. Once he was no longer useful, they got rid of him. Now let's talk of Al-qaeda.. Let's put in in Hilary's words: "the people we're fighting today were funded by us 30 years ago" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dqn0bm4E9yw

See now the ISIS, and offshoot of Al-Qaeda. You were so commited to destroy secular and stable but not US-aligned syrian regime that you funded every group fighting against Al-Assad. You gave them weapons, money and filled syrian land with mercenaries. And what u got? ISIS. As someone looking this crap from outside I can say this is the biggest threat to american soil from 9/11. They're al-qaeda overpowered (and I still think the highest spheres of wester power have let them be). I've got another question in mind. It's just matter to investigate a little to realize 90% of the muslim terrorism is directly funded by Saudi regime. That include those who did 9/11. Why the hell do you protect them? You say 'it's our ally' (what an ally!) You should invade Saudi Arabia, not Iraq or Syria.. You should fear King Abdullah, not Iranian president! But the reality is, all your presidents bow to Saudi King...

Me:

Politicians can be wrong too. The Mujahedeen didn’t just morph into Al-Qaeda. Bin Laden’s mentor and co-founder of Al-Qaeda, Abdullah Azzam, started out in the Muslim Brotherhood. This is the ideological roots of Al-Qaeda, but I have addressed this already. By the way if we had not intervened in Afghanistan in the 80’s it would be under Russian control now.

For the record, I do not agree with the Obama administration on most things and I didn’t agree with supporting the Syrian Rebels. There’s no good guys in Syria. Having said that, our support for the Syrian opposition has been very limited, the biggest contribution has been a few dozen TOW missiles. The Syrian opposition has said U.S. arms have been too few to be adequate. The Rebels also get support from the gulf states. As for ISIS most of the U.S. weapons were taken from the Iraqi military and the rest is mostly either Russian or Chinese made. ISIS also gets it's money from various sources, including social media, wealthy donors in Kuwait, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia, and from the local economy, including oil installations and refineries, food granaries, and by extorting and taxing individuals operating businesses in the region.

So as you can see their weapons and funding come from a variety of sources, so there’s a lot of blame to go around. Some U.S. arms may have inadvertently ended up into the hands of ISIS when some of the Syrian opposition forces joined ISIS but that in itself would have been marginal and would not have contributed to the growth of ISIS. As for Saudi Arabia, I agree they are not true friends. At best they are frenemies.

Him:
Well, I agree this is not just USA's government blame.. It's just the elites playing their game of thrones. I guess China is also involved in this. They would be happy if West and Middle East weaken each other. When I'm in optimist mood I think ISIS is just an strategy to attract all the extremism in one place and then.. boom. Nuke'em all. With those people, the elites, we can not know. They make us think there is a big conflict between West (Usa, Europe) and East (China, Russia) but if u ask the richs, they are all friends and don't have nationalities when it comes to defend their wealth and business. Greetings, Texas guy.

Me:
There's so many players involved, it's hard to keep track of them all. Anyways I'm out. Thanks for the civil debate, it's been fun. Peace.

Did the U.S. arm ISIS?

I'll preface by saying I'm certainly no fan of the Obama administration or of supporting the Syrian opposition but there is the belief going around that the U.S. armed ISIS by supporting the Syrian opposition. I admit I've said this a few times myself. But how true is it? I decided to do a little digging and find out for myself. First a look at the Syrian opposition.

Weapons used by the Syrian opposition come from a variety of sources. There's a mix of very old and newer weapons from many different countries (some of which no longer exist) including China, USA, Russia\USSR, Austria, Germany, Belgium, Yugoslavia, Nazi Germany, France, Romania, Hungary, Iran, Israel, Czechoslovakia, Syria, Croatia, Serbia, Sweden. The majority are Chinese and Russian made, but the weapons are shuffled around so much from one country to another, it's impossible to say who funded what. Heavy equipment, such as tanks and vehicles, were captured from the Syrian army. Armed groups in Syria have acquired at least eight models of MANPADS, or man-portable air defense systems, most of which were designed and/or manufactured in China or Russia. The likely sources of these MANPADS are from Sudan, Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

The U.S. support for the Syrian opposition thus far has been very limited. A few dozen BGM-71 TOW missiles have been the biggest contribution. The other American made weapons seen have been the M1911 Pistol, M4 Carbine, M14 rifle (rare), M16 rifle, Mk 2 grenade, M72 Law RPG,  and M40 anti-tank rifle. These weapons may have come from the United States or from countries which the United States have supplied weapons to. The U.S. deliveries have not included weapons such as shoulder-launched surface-to-air missiles, known as MANPADs, which can shoot down military or civilian aircraft.

Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states lobbied aggressively for the Obama administration to step up its support. In June of 2014 the Obama Administration has lobbied congress to supply the opposition with $500 million worth of weapons, equipment, and training, which have yet to be approved as of this writing. Currently the opposition claims the supply of arms have been too few to be adequate.

Now on to ISIS.  Their armaments are predominantly a mix of veteran Soviet tanks; large, advanced U.S.-made systems; and black market arms and include rocket launchers, grenade launchers. Other weapons include the American-made M60 machine guns from Croatia through Saudi Arabia, soviet made SA-7 MANPAD, Chinese HJ-8 and Russian AT-4 anti-tank systems, Soviet 12.7mm DShK machine guns, and Chinese-made Type 65 or Type 74 37mm twin-barreled anti-aircraft guns. Most of the U.S. weapons and equipment were taken from the Iraqi military, including night vision goggles.

ISIS gets it's money from various sources, including social media fundraising and wealthy donors in Kuwait, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia. ISIS have also taken control of the local economy, including oil installations and refineries, food granaries, and by extorting and taxing individuals operating businesses in the region.

In conclusion both the Syrian opposition and ISIS gets it's weapons and funding from a variety of sources and there's many players involved on all sides. Some U.S. arms may have inadvertently ended up into the hands of ISIS when some of the Syrian opposition forces joined ISIS. However the U.S. contribution has been so limited that it's not likely to have contributed to the growth of ISIS in and of itself, which is due to many factors.